Response to attacks

The ideas that I am talking about are ideas that are widely supported. Everything that I talk about raising them, minimum wage, health care for all, a tax system which demands the billionaires pay their fair share, those are all popular ideas, but people didn't know. You got to run for president and have 20,000 people come out to your rallies and win 23 states. They say, "Hmm. Well, maybe those ideas are not so crazy after all, and we've got to entertain them." The establishment doesn't like that. They really don't. They want to tell you, and this is their main... This is how they succeed. What they say, Lex, is, "The world is the way it is. It always will be this way. We got the wealth. We got the power. And don't think of anything else. This is the way it is. You have no power. Give up." They don't say it quite that way, but that's really what the intent is. And what we showed is, guess what? Running an outsider campaign, we took on the Democratic establishment, we came close to winning it, and we did win 23 states. And the ideas that we're talking about are the ideas that working class people, young people believe in.

Growing up, did you ever think you'd be a politician? Nope. Not in a million years.

So on the war front, one of the things that people don't often talk about, your work in politics. You gave what I think is a truly brave speech on the Iraq War in 2002, I believe. You voted no on the Iraq Resolution, you voted no on the Patriot Act, and you basically predicted very accurately what would happen if we go into Iraq. What was your thinking at the time behind those speeches, behind voting no on the Patriot Act on the Iraq Resolution? It maybe ironically came out of maybe the war in Vietnam and the ease and lies that people told. We went into Vietnam under a lie. We lost close to 60,000 Americans. Millions of people in the Vietnam and Cambodia died as a result of that. So I think twice about it. And then the war in Iraq, you had people like Dick Cheney and others telling us, "Oh, they have nuclear weapons and all that stuff. It's the only way we can resolve the issue." I didn't believe it. I didn't agree with it. And you're right, it turns out, historically, I was right.

Okay, let's talk about Medicare for all. If you could snap your fingers today and implement the best possible healthcare system for the United States of America, what would that look like? Well, we have a pretty good system.

Again, if a single politician discusses it to get punished for it. So there needs to be a mass movement and probably, I mean from my perspective, it has to come from the very top. It has to come from the president. And the president has to be a populist president where they don't care about the parties with the rich people. They just speak out because they know it's a popular message and they know it's the right thing. So speaking of that, you had a historic campaign run for president in 2016, and in the eyes of many people, mine included, you were screwed over by the DNC, especially the WikiLeaks emails showed. What's your just looking back feelings about that? And you're angry, are upset? Yeah, of of course I'm angry and of course I'm upset. But when you take on, in this case, the democratic establishment who have controlled that party forever, moneyed interests of the Democratic Party, you're taking on corporate America when you're taking on the corporate media. And when you're calling for a political revolution that creates the government that works for all and not just the few, the opposition is going to be extraordinary. But what I am extremely proud of from that campaign in 2020 as well, is that we took on the anointed candidate of the establishment and we showed, despite the fact the entire establishment I had in the Senate, I had one supporter, there were 50 Democrats, I had one supporter, I had no governor supporting me. I think maybe a few people in the house.

Well, there's this interesting story about a long time coming meeting between you and Obama in 2018, I believe. So Ari Rabin-Havt, who was a former deputy campaign manager, wrote a great book I would say about you called The Fighting Soul: On the Road with Bernie Sanders. And he tells many great stories, but one of them is your meeting with Obama. And he says that Obama told you, Bernie... I wish I could do a good Obama impression. Bernie, you're an Old Testament prophet. A moral voice for our party giving us guidance. Here's the thing though, prophets don't get to be king. Kings have to make choices, prophets don't. Are you willing to make those choices? Basically Obama's making the case that you have to sort of moderate your approach in order to win. So was Obama right? Look, and again, that's why politics is very, very fascinating. Sometimes you can run and lose and you really win if your goal is not just individual power, but transforming society. One of my heroes, you mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. who is one of my heroes. Another one of my heroes is Eugene Victor Debs. Does that ring a bell?

I have to ask you about capitalism, the pros and cons. So you wrote a book, It's Okay To Be Angry About Capitalism. That is a thorough, rigorous criticism of I would say hypercapitalism, a certain kind of capitalism that you argue that we are existing in today in the United States. But a lot of people would attribute to capitalism all the amazing technological innovations over the past 70 plus years that have contributed to increase in quality of life in GDP, decrease in poverty, decrease in infant mortality, increase in expected life expectancy. So how do you see the tension, the pros of capitalism and the cons of capitalism? Some of my European friends, they say Bernie, in the United States, you're considered to be very radical. If you were here in France or Denmark or someplace, you'd be kind of mainstream left guy. Not all that radical. So this is what I think. I mean, I think the best that we could do right now, where we are right now, it's the great a society which does two things. It encourages innovation, but at the same time, it makes sure that all people in a wealthy nation have a decent standard of living. And some countries, if you look at Scandinavia, and this shocks people because we don't talk about this at all. So in Scandinavia it has been the case, Denmark, Finland, Norway for years that people have healthcare. That's not a big thing. You end up in the hospital. So what? They don't pay a bill.

Okay. Let me ask you about the future of the Democratic Party. So one of the biggest impacts you've had is you've been in the fuel, the catalyst for the increase of the progressive caucus, the progressive movement within the Democratic Party. Do you think that is the future, the progressives, even Democratic socialist leaders will take over the party? That is the most important question, regarding to my mind, American politics. One of the successes that we've had, and I'm proud to have played a role in this, is that if you go to the House of Representatives right now, you'll see almost a hundred members of the Progressive Caucus led very well by a woman from Washington, Pramila Jayapal. Does a great job. That's people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar and many others. Many of them are young, often women, people of color. And many of them come from working-class backgrounds. So, what we have been able to do in recent years, elect a number of strong progressives who represent working families very, very effectively.

So we mentioned about the worry of getting sick, the worry of life that many people in the working class are suffering from. But there's also the worry that we all experience of the finiteness of life. Do you ponder your own mortality? Are you afraid of it? Well, when you're 83, it does come across.

What gives you hope about the future of this country, about the future of the world? Sometimes one can become very cynical. You look at the terrible wars that are going on right now, you look at the divisiveness in this country, the ugliness, the poverty, you look at climate change. You can get depressed from all that. But I am lucky in this sense, in that I've had the opportunity... People often, "What inspires you? How do you keep going?" And I remember, actually it was in California where it really crystallized me. I was at a rally in the agricultural area of California. And we did a rally, it was sunset, thousands of people were out. And you looked around the crowd and there were young people, black and white and Latino and Asian American, huge cross section. There were older people, and they all wanted to make America a very much better country. And it really moved me.