Lost City of Z

For the vast majority of human existence, we've been nomadic and we've done these wider or tighter nomadic circles, depending on the geographic region, but they'd move. So once humans figured out how to stay in a place, that's the initial trigger to what would become civilization. I think you said beauty and blood went hand in hand for the Aztec.

Do you think there are lost civilizations in the history of humans on earth which we don't know anything about? Yes, I do. And in fact, we have found some civilizations that we had no idea about just in my lifetime. I mean, we've got Gobekli Tepe and we've got the stuff that's going on in the Amazon, and there's some other less startling things that we had no idea existed and push our dates back and gave us whole new civilizations we had no idea about. So yeah, it's happened and I think it'll happen again.

So humans, homo sapiens evolved, but they didn't start civilizations right away. There was a long period of time when they did not form these complex societies. So how do we, let's say, 300,000 years ago in Africa, actually go from there to creating civilizations? I think that a lot of human evolution had to do with the pressures that their environment put upon them. And a lot of things start changing right around 12,000 years ago, and that's when our last ice age really ended. I think there was a whole lot of things that just pressured them into, especially, finding new ways of subsistence. Here in the Americas, a huge thing that happened was all the megafauna went away. When the climate changed enough, the mammoths died out and the bison died out, and they had to come up with different ways of doing things. We were hunters and gatherers, and we had things we got from hunting, and we got things we got from gathering. And in the Americas, when the things that they were used to hunting went away and they had to make do with rabbits, the gathering started to be a much more important thing.

The really interesting story is how the first people came to the Americas. To me, that's pretty gangster, to go from Asia all the way potentially during the ice Age or maybe at the end of the ice age or during that whole period not knowing what the world looks like going into the unknown. Can you talk to that process? How did the first people come to the Americas? Well, first off, I agree with you, that was pretty gangster. That's a hard place to live. I listened to some of your podcasts, that guy, Jordan Jonas, he cut the mustard, but I wouldn't have made it crossing there.

You've spoken about the lost cradle of civilization, South America. South America is not often talked about as one of the cradles of civilization, South America, Mesoamerica. Can you explain? Well, we have very early stuff in South America. You're right. Especially as an American, our country's so big and we are so far removed from these places, we don't even think about it. But more and more we're seeing things that predate the earliest stuff that we like to talk about, like Egypt and Mesopotamia. It's all on the Peruvian coast that we have these cradles of civilization. Someday we might start talking about the Amazon more and more, but right now what we've got are things that date back into the 3000s BCE along the coast of Peru. And there are big stone-built pyramids and temples, and they're amazingly isolated, even now that we've found them.

One of the things you said that really surprised me is that pyramids were built in Peru possibly hundreds of years before they were built in Egypt. Is that true? Absolutely. Absolutely.

So there's interesting cultures developing in the Amazon. So religion, you would say, preceded civilization? In South America, Caral and Aspero that I was just talking about, it's weird what a dearth of art and any evidence of religion we have. We have those pyramids and things that we call temples, but we don't really know what went on in there. And there's no...

This awesomely makes sense now because I saw the opening of a paper you wrote 30 years ago on shamanism and Mocha civilization. It reads, "The Mocha are the major focus of this paper. Sex puppies and headhunting will be shown to be related to ancient Mocha shamanism." So now I understand. I was like, "Well, the puppies." Puppies, yeah, it's true.

Yeah. I went to the Amazon recently and did Ayahuasca, a very high dose of it. Bold move.

So speaking of Gobekli Tepe, what do you think about the work of Graham Hancock, who also believes that there's a lost civilization in the Amazon? Well, I've met Graham, and personally I like him. He's a nice guy, got a nice sense of humor, and I think he's smart. And I also think he is a very good researcher. He and I are working on the same set of facts. The differences are interpretations. I do not believe Graham's idea that a single, now lost ancient civilization seeded the rest of them. I just don't see that on a number of levels, artifact wise, technology wise, art, historical analysis. So I think his research is great. I think that he's very well-read, in fact, better read than a lot of my colleagues, but his conclusions I disagree with. And he and I have talked about this and had a very civil and normal conversation about it and agree to disagree without spitting any venom at any point in the conversation.

I really love that, and I really appreciate that you're saying that. One of the fascinating things about just the Amazon to me is that there's still a large number of uncontacted tribes. To rewind back into ancient history, you can imagine all of these tribes that existed in the Amazon that were isolated, very distinct from each other. Can you speak to this, your understanding of these tribes and their history that are still here today? Well, a lot of them are these... By uncontacted, we mean we don't know anything about these guys. We know roughly where they are, but places like Ecuador have very responsible policies where no one's allowed to go contact them. So we have a dearth of information. If they walk out of the jungle and talk to us, that's one thing, but we don't go out and there looking for them, but they do seem frozen in time, and I don't think any of us have a good estimation of how long they've been like that. But we were saying earlier that humans change based on pressures of their environment. Mother necessity is oftentimes how we invent things or why we change, it's pressure. And one thing the Amazon is, once you figure out how not to die in it, it's a paradise of food. Food's fallen from the sky all the time there, and once you learn to adapt to that environment, you've got very little need. There's no pressure to make anything else. Things are working.

Yep. So at which point did what we now call the Maya Civilization arise? That's another complicated one, another group living mostly in a jungle that we have barely begun to explore. You know, the truth is a lot of the questions in the Amazon and what we're talking about now is the Patan and the mountains there. Those aren't places archeologists want to live, they're horrible. I mean, I've been there. I don't want to live in a tent and eat rations. I want to live in a nice town. So a lot of the places where the answers are, we still really haven't gotten there, because it takes a special person to be educated enough to know what they're looking at, and tough enough to want to be there. I've done my tour of duty, I'm now in a nice little podcast studio. But seriously, the Maya, the first hint that we see people who are culturally Maya, very close to where the time period for that Chavin culture, is about 1800 BCE.

Yeah, I mean, unquestionably incredible scientific work in the astronomy sense, especially here. Can you speak to all the sophisticated aspects of the Mayan calendar that they've developed? Don't know, you got another five hours?

And one of the things I do obviously wonder about is why- Wonder about is why the flood myth is part of most societies and most religions.

You mentioned the Aztec. What was the origin of the Aztec? Where did these people come from, at what time, and how? Almost every one of the cultures we're talking about now, we have two different versions of the answer to that question. We have the archeology version, and we have the Aztecs themselves. The Aztecs have this wonderful migration story where they say that they came from a place well to the north called Aztlán. And that they had this migration that went through kind of a hero's journey where they go to this snake mountain place and they encounter the birth of the war god that they'll worship after this. And how they stepped into the Valley of Mexico as the last, the lost brothers of everyone in the Valley of Mexico. They said that they all came from the north near Aztlán as a place, a cave with seven different passages called Chicomoztoc. And that all the people who spoke the language Nahuatl came from the cave. And most of them went early to the Valley of Mexico. And in the Aztecs' story, they were just the lost tribe. They were the last brothers to come in.

So you think without the Spanish, there would be this Aztec empire that would last for a very long time. I think there would've been an Aztec empire. I think they would've finished dominating everybody, but they did it through hate and everybody hated the Aztecs.

You've also lectured, which I really enjoyed, about North America. And also helped teach me that there was a lot more complex societies going on here for a long period of time. So maybe can we start at the beginning? Who were the early humans in North America? Well, we go through that paleo Indian and archaic period for thousands of years. As we started this conversation, probably 30,000 years is a conservative now, humans first entered the Americas, but the first cultures we get here are mound-builders around the Mississippi and to the east, and then also a totally separate group in what we call the American Southwest now, the four Corners, who will develop into mostly the people we call the Pueblo people who are still there today, like Zuni and Hopi people.

So this whole period when Christopher Columbus came, how did that change everything? Well, there's a great anthropological body of literature.

Just as since a lot of people refer to Christopher Columbus as the person who discovered America, I read that the Vikings reached North America much earlier in 1000 C.E. And why do you think they didn't expand and colonize? Because they got their ass kicked.

All right, just my style. I mean we didn't really talk about how life originated on Earth or how humans have evolved, and we did talk about that there could be just a lot of stuff in ancient history we haven't even uncovered yet. Do you think it's possible that other intelligent civilizations from outside of earth, aliens ever visited?

What do you think earth will look like 10,000 years from now? That's an interesting question. I think it will be a lot more automated or it'll be a smoldering pile. There is a possibility we could end ourselves. There's always that possibility that we've really opened Pandora's box in some regards. I did listen to one of your podcast guests with what would happen in the case of nuclear war. That was chilling. Her opinion was certainly we would burn everything to a crisp within minutes apparently. So we have that capacity. That's scary. That's a possible future for us. But I'm an optimist. I'd like to think that guys like you are going to make friendly robots who make my job better.

So given that you've looked into the deep past of humanity, what gives you hope about our future, maybe our deep future of this human civilization? That's a good one, and I do have hope. I do have hope. I believe in the spirit of humankind. I as a person who have studied history, I kind of feel like history does kind of a sine wave. There's highs and there's lows, but no matter how low we go, we get up again and we climb. And I think that humanity will continue that. We will rise to the challenges. Now, some of the challenges may be created by ourselves as well, but we will adapt and overcome. That's what we do.