Introduction

Let's start with a big foundational idea that you have about human history. That there was an advanced Ice Age civilization that came before and perhaps seeded what people now call the sixth cradles of Civilization, Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, China, Indies, and Mesoamerica. So let's talk about this idea that you have. Can you at the highest possible level describe it? It would be better to describe it as a foundational sense of puzzlement and incompleteness in the story that we are taught about our past, which envisages more or less, there have been a few ups and downs, but more or less a straightforward evolutionary progress. We start out as hunter-foragers, then we become agriculturalists. The hunter-forager phase could go back hundreds of thousands of years. I mean, this is where it is also important to mention that anatomically modern humans, and we're not the only humans. We had Neanderthals from, I don't know, 400,000 years ago to about 40,000 years ago. They were certainly human because anatomically modern humans interbred with them. And we carry Neanderthal genes. There were the Denisovans maybe 300,000 to perhaps even as recently as 30,000 years ago. And again, interbreeding took place. They're obviously a human species. So we've got this background of humans who didn't look quite like us.

So the current understanding in mainstream archeology is that after the Younger Dryas is when the civilizations popped up in different places of the globe with a lot of similarities, but they popped up independently. Independently. And by coincidence. And by coincidence, those big civilizations that we all remember as the first civilizations, Sumer, Egypt, the Indus Valley Civilization, China, they all pop up at pretty much the same time. That is the mainstream view.

And perhaps we should also state, if we look at the entirety of history of hominids, humans or hominids have been explorers. I didn't even know this when I was preparing for this. Looking at Homo erectus 1. 9 million years ago. Absolutely.

At least I think that's the best theory to explain them. Here, I think it's important to pay tribute to the work of Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend. Giorgio de Santillana was professor of history of science actually at MIT, where you are based, back in the sixties. And Hertha von Dechend was professor of the history of science at Frankfurt University, and they wrote an immense book in the 1960s called Hamlet's Mill, and Hamlet's Mill differs very strongly from established opinion on the issue of the phenomenon of precession. And I'll explain what precession is in a moment. Generally, it's held that it was the Greeks who discovered the precession and the dating on that is put back not very far, maybe 2,300 years ago or so. Santillana and von Dechend are pointing out that knowledge of precession is much, much older than that, thousands of years older than that. And they do actually trace it. I think I'm quoting them pretty much correctly to some almost unbelievable ancestor civilization. Reading that book was one of the several reasons that I got into this mystery in the first place. Okay, now, the precession of the equinoxes, to give it its full name, results from the fact that our planet is the viewing platform from which we observe the stars. And our planet, of course, is rotating on its own axis at roughly a thousand miles an hour at the equator. But what's less obvious is that it's also wobbling on its axis. So if you imagine the extended North Pole of the earth pointing up at the sky in our time, it's pointing at the star Polaris, and that is our pole star. But Polaris has not always been the pole star precisely because of this wobble on the axis of the Earth.

I take them very seriously. There's many reasons, but I can't help being deeply impressed and deeply puzzled by the worldwide tradition of a global cataclysm within human memory. I mean, we know scientifically that there have been many, many cataclysms in the past going back millions of years. I mean, the best-known one of course is the KPG event as it's now called, that made the dinosaurs extinct 65 million or 66 million years ago. But has there been such a cataclysm in the lifetime of the human species? Yeah, the Mount Toba eruption about 70,000 years ago was pretty bad. But a global cataclysm, the Younger Dryas really ticks all the boxes as a worldwide disaster, which definitely involved sea level rise, both at the beginning and at the end of the Younger Dryas. It definitely involved the swallowing up of lands that previously had been above water.

Well, can you actually describe the Sphinx and the Great Pyramids and what you find most mysterious and interesting about them? Well, first of all, the astronomy. And here I must pay tribute to two individuals, actually three individuals in particular. One of them is John Anthony West, passed away in 2018. He was the first person in our era to begin to wonder if the Sphinx was much older than it had been.

Now, of course, the air bars on this are quite large, but if an advanced ice-age civilization existed, where do you think it was? Where do you think we might find it one day if it existed, and how big do you think it might have been? Well, this is where I'm often accused of presenting a God-of-the-gaps argument, that I think there was a lost civilization because there's lots of the earth that archeologists have never looked at. Of course, I'm not thinking that. These are very special gaps that I'm interested in. I'm interested in them because of all the curiosities and the puzzlement that I've expressed to you before. It's not just because they're gaps in the archeological record. It's because those gaps involve places that were very interesting places to live during the ice age. They specifically include the Sahara Desert, which was not a desert during the ice age and went through this warm wet period when it was very, very fertile. Certainly, some archeology has been done in the Sahara, but it's fractional. It's tiny. I think if we want to get into the true origins of Ancient Egyptian civilization, of the peoples of Ancient Egypt, we need to be looking in the Sahara for that.

To me, the story that we've been talking about... It is both exciting if the mainstream archeology narrative is correct and the one you're constructing is correct. Both are super interesting because the mainstream archeology perspective means that there's something about the human mind from which the pyramids/these ideas spring naturally. You place humans anywhere. You place them on Mars. It's going to come out that way. That's an interesting story of human psychology that then becomes even more interesting when you evolve out of Africa with homo sapiens, how they think about the world. That's super interesting. Then, if there's an ancient civilization/advanced civilization that explains why there's so many similar types of ideas that spread, that means that there's so much undiscovered still about the spring of these ideas of civilization that come. To me, they're both fascinating. I don't know why there's so much infighting. I think it's partly territorial. I cannot speak of all archeologists, but some archeologists feel very territorial about their profession. They do not feel happy about outsiders entering their realm, especially if those outsiders have a large platform. I've found that the attacks on me by archeologists have increased step-by-step with the increase of my exposure. I wasn't very interesting to them when I just had one minor bestseller in 1992 with a book called The Sign and the Seal. But when Fingerprints of the Gods was published in 1995 and became a global bestseller, then I started to attract their attention and appear to have been regarded as a threat to them.

Everything we're talking about is so full of mystery. It's just fascinating, especially the farther back we go. That's what I love about the past, is the mystery that's there. And that's another thing that I regret about some archeologists is that their mission seems to drain all mystery out of the past, to suck it dry like some vampire sucking the blood out of the past and to reduce it to a series of numbers that appear to be scientific. I think that's most unfortunate. The past is deeply mysterious. The whole story of life on earth is deeply mysterious. We were talking about the timeline of human beings, but if you go back to the formation of the earth itself, if I've got the figures right, it's about four-and-a-half billion years ago that the Earth supposedly formed. It was then incredibly hot and inhospitable to life for the next several hundred million years.

That's the leap from non-human to human. One of the things you've discussed is your idea of what was the leap to human civilization? What is the driver? What is the inspiration for humans to form civilizations? And for you, that's shamanism. Definitely.

If you look into the future, maybe the next a hundred years, what do you hope are the interesting discoveries in archeology that we'll find? Well, I'd really like to know how the Great Pyramid was built. And we now have, with new tech, with scanning technology, it's now become apparent that there are many major voids within the Great Pyramid. Right above the Grand Gallery, there's what looks like a second Grand Gallery that has been identified with remote scanning. And new chambers, one of them has even been opened up already, are being found as a result of this. So it may be that the Great Pyramid will ultimately give up its secrets.

So you mentioned that the pyramids, and some of the other amazing things that humans have built, was the result of us humans struggling with our mortality. That's the ultimate goal. That seems to me what's at the heart of many pyramids around the world is that they're connected in one way or another to the notion of death and to the notion of the exploration of the afterlife. And this is of course, the fundamental mystery that all human beings face. We may wish to ignore it, we may wish to pretend that it's not going to happen, but we are of course, all mortal. Every one of us, all 8 billion or however many of us that are on the planet right now, we're all going to face death sooner or later. And the question is what happens?