In this episode...

The following is a conversation with Narendra Modi, the prime Minister of India. It was one of the most moving conversations and experiences of my life. Allow me here to say a few words about it. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation, if you like. Narendra Modi's life story is incredible. He rose from poverty to lead a nation of 1.4 billion people, the biggest democracy in the world, where he won epic-scale elections for Prime Minister three times. As a leader, he fought for ideas that unite his nation of India, a nation that is composed of a large number of highly varied and disparate cultures and peoples, who have a long history marked by religious, social, and political frictions. He is known for taking decisive, at times controversial actions for which he is loved by hundreds of millions of people, and is also criticized by many. We discuss all of this at length in this conversation. On the world stage, he is respected as a peacemaker and friend by most major world leaders, even those whose nations are at war with each other, from the United States to China, to Ukraine and Russia, to Israel, Palestine and the Middle East, and everywhere else. Now, at this moment in history, it is clear, at least to me, that the flourishing of human civilization hangs in the balance, with several wars on the brink of escalation to regional and even global conflict, rising tensions between nuclear powers, technological developments from AI to nuclear fusion that aim to completely transform society and geopolitics as we know it, and of course, generally increasing political and cultural turmoil. So now more than ever, we need great leaders, great peacemakers who build bridges, not destroy them, who may preserve the identity of their nations, but still celebrate the common humanity of all of us, all people on earth. For this and many other reasons, this conversation with Prime Minister Modi was one of the most remarkable I've ever had. You may hear such words and think that I'm just enamored by power or access. No, never was, never will be. I do not idolize anyone, especially those in power. I'm generally skeptical of power, money, and fame because of their natural corrupting influence on the mind, the heart, the soul of a person.

So, I should also say I'm fasting right now. It's been almost two days, 45 hours, so just water, no food in honor of this conversation, just to get in the right mindset, get into the spiritual level. I've read that you often fast for many days. Can you explain why you fast, and where does your mind go when you fast? First of all, I'm truly pleasantly surprised and honored that you're fasting, all the more because it feels like you're fasting as a tribute of respect for me. So, I express my deepest gratitude to you for doing this. In India, our religious traditions are actually a way of life. Our Supreme Court once gave a brilliant interpretation of Hinduism. They have stated that Hinduism is not about rituals or methods of worship, but rather it's a way of living, a philosophy that guides life itself. And in our scriptures, there is deep discussion on elevating the body, mind, intellect, soul, and humanity. They outline various paths, traditions, and systems to achieve this, and fasting is one of them, but fasting alone isn't everything. In India, whether you see it culturally or philosophically, sometimes I see that fasting is a way to cultivate discipline.

Let's go to the beginning. You rose from humble beginnings to lead the world's largest democracy. So, I think there's a lot of people for whom this is truly inspiring. Your family was a very modest means, and you grew up in a one-room house with a mud floor, your whole family living there. Tell me about your childhood. How did those humble beginnings shape your outlook on life? My birthplace is in Gujarat, specifically in North Gujarat, in Mehsana district, in a small town called Vadnagar. Historically, this town holds great significance, and so Vadnagar is where I was born and completed my early education. Looking at the world as I understand it today, I can reflect on my childhood and the unique environment I grew up in. My village had certain fascinating aspects, some of which are quite rare, even globally. When I was in school, there was an elder in our village who would regularly tell students, "Listen, kids, wherever you go, if you find a carved stone, or you find a stone with inscriptions on it or anything with engravings, bring it and place it in this corner of the school." Over time, my curiosity grew and I started to understand. I realized that my village had a rich and ancient history. Discussions at school often revealed more fascinating details about its past. Later I learned that China even made a film about it. I had read in a newspaper about a film that mentioned the Chinese philosopher Hiuen Tsang, who had spent a considerable amount of time in my village, having arrived there many centuries ago. Back then, it was a major center for Buddhist learning. That's how I first learned about it. And perhaps around the 1400s, it was a prominent Buddhist educational hub.

There's a lot of young people listening to this that are truly inspired by your story. From those humble beginnings to the leader of the biggest democracy in the world, what can you tell to those young folks who are struggling, who are lost in the world, who are trying to find their way? What advice could you give them? I want to tell all the young people the following. No matter how dark the night may seem, it is still just night, and morning is bound to come. That's why we need patience and self-confidence. Yes, the challenges are real, but I am not defined by my circumstances. I am here for a purpose, sent by a higher power, and I am not alone. The one who sent me is always with me. This unwavering faith should always remain within us. Difficulties are a test of endurance. They are not meant to defeat me. Hardships exist to make me stronger, helping me grow and improve, not to leave me feeling hopeless or discouraged. Personally, I see every crisis, every challenge as an opportunity.

And I should say that this young kid, one of the things I've dreamed of doing is to do this very thing, to talk to you today. So, this is very surreal. At 17, another fascinating part of your life. You left home and spent two years roaming in the Himalayas, searching for purpose, for deeper truth, for God. So, not much is known about this period of your life. You lived a nomadic, minimalist existence, very much like a yogi, often sleeping without a roof over your head. What are some memorable spiritual moments, rituals, experiences from that time? It seems like you've put in a lot of effort. Look, I don't usually talk much about this, but I can share a few external aspects of it. I grew up in a very small town. Our life was all about being part of a community. We lived among people, surrounded by them. That was just how life was. There was a library in the village, and I used to go there often to read books. Whenever I read something from the books, I often found myself feeling inspired, thinking, "Why shouldn't I shape my own life like that?" That desire was always there. When I used to read about Swami Vivekananda or read about Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, I would often wonder, "How did they live? How did they build such remarkable lives?" And for that, I constantly experimented on myself. Most of my experiments were physical in nature, testing my body's limits.

And for people who don't know, that moment in the Ramakrishna Mission Ashram with the monk, Swami Atmasthananda, as you mentioned, he helped steer you towards a life of service. So, there's another possible life that could have been where you take Sannyasa, you give away everything, and you're a monk. So, we could have had a monk, Narendra Modi, and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and he helped you take the decision to live a life of service at every scale From the outside, people may call me a leader. Some call me the prime minister. Others call me the chief minister, and that's how they see me from their perspective. But deep within, there is only an unwavering spiritual commitment. The Modi, who lovingly helped his mother care for children during their treatments, tending to them with patience and compassion. The Modi who wandered through the Himalayas. And the Modi who now works from this seat of responsibility. They are all tied together by the same inner consistency. Every action is dedicated to serving others. People may see a stark difference between a saint and a leader, but to me, there is no real difference. Yes, the attire changes, the way of life changes. The words spoken throughout the day shift and the nature of work evolves. But the core of my being remains unchanged, carrying out every responsibility with the same sense of calm, focus, and dedication.

Another part of your life of who you are is you've spoken your whole life about putting your nation of India above all else. When you were eight, you joined the RSS, which espouses the idea of Hindu nationalism. Can you tell me about RSS and what impact they had on who you are and the development of your political ideas? Ever since childhood, I always had the habit of staying engaged in something or the other. I remember there was a man named Makoshi. I don't quite recall his full name. I think he was part of the service group, Makoshi Soni or something like that. He used to carry a small drum-like instrument called the Tambourine with him, and he used to sing patriotic songs in his deep, powerful voice. Whenever he came to our village, he would hold programs in different places. I would run after him like a crazy fan just to listen to his songs. I would spend entire nights listening to their patriotic songs. I enjoyed it. I don't even know why, but I just did. In our village, there was a branch of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, where we played sports and sang patriotic songs. Something about those songs touched me deeply. They stirred something inside me, and that's how I eventually became part of the RSS. One of the core values that were instilled in us at RSS was, whatever you do, do it with a purpose. Even while studying, study with the goal of learning enough to contribute to the nation. Even when you exercise, do it with the purpose of strengthening your body to serve the nation. This is what we were taught. And today, RSS is a massive organization. It is now nearing its 100th anniversary. Such a massive volunteer organization likely doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Millions of people are connected to it, but understanding RSS is not that simple. One must make an effort to truly grasp the nature of its work. More than anything, the RSS provides you with a clear direction toward what can truly be called a purpose in life. Secondly, the nation is everything, and serving the people is akin to serving God.

But they've also helped push the idea of India. What is the idea that unifies India? What is India as a nation? What is the foundational idea that unites all of these disparate worlds and communities and cultures? What would it be? Look, India is a cultural identity. It is a civilization that dates back thousands of years. Consider the vastness of India, over 100 languages, thousands of dialects. India is so diverse that we have a saying that every 20 miles, the language changes, customs change, cuisine changes, even clothing styles shift from region to region. From the south to the north, you will see immense diversity across the country. But if you dig a little deeper, you will find a common thread. For example, the stories of Lord Ram can be heard everywhere in India. His name echoes in every corner of the country. But if you look closely from Tamil Nadu to Jammu and Kashmir, you will always find people whose names include Ram in some form. In Gujarat, he might be called Rambhai. In Tamil Nadu, Ramachandra, and in Maharashtra, Rambhau.

If we look at the historical foundation of modern India, along with yourself, Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most important humans to have ever lived, but certainly one of the most important humans to the history of India. What do you admire about Mahatma Gandhi? As I had mentioned before, I was born in Gujarat, and Gujarati is my mother tongue. Mahatma Gandhi was also born in Gujarat. His native language was Gujarati too. He pursued a career as an attorney and lived overseas for several years. He had plenty of great opportunities, but the deep sense of duty within him, along with the values instilled by his family, led him to give up all comforts and devote his life to serving the people of India. He joined the struggle for India's independence, and to this day, he continues to deeply influence the life of every Indian in some way. Mahatma Gandhi tried to live by his principles and practiced what he preached. For example, he strongly advocated for cleanliness and practiced it-

You have spoken about, you have the experience, you have the skill, you have the geopolitical leverage to be the biggest peacemaker in the world today, on the world stage, and there's several wars going on. Can you maybe explain how you approach the process of making peace, helping make peace between two warring nations, for example, Russia and Ukraine? Well, I represent the country that is the land of Lord Buddha. I represent the country that is the land of Mahatma Gandhi. These are the great souls whose teachings, words, actions, and behavior are entirely dedicated to peace. And that is why culturally and historically our background is so strong that whenever we speak of peace, the world listens to us. Because India is the land of Gautam Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi and Indians aren't hardwired to espouse strife and conflict. We espouse harmony instead. We seek neither to wage war against nature, nor to foster strife among nations. We stand for peace and wherever we can act as peacemakers, we have gladly embraced that responsibility.

Another difficult historic relationship and conflict is between India and Pakistan, it's one of the most tense conflicts in the world, two nuclear powers with strong ideological differences. You are a great peacemaker. Looking out into the future as a visionary, what do you see as the path for friendship, for peace, for good relations between India and Pakistan? I would like to delve into periods of our history the world may be unfamiliar with. Before 1947, during the struggle for independence, everyone was fighting side-by-side, shoulder-to-shoulder, and the nation was eagerly waiting to celebrate the freedom, the joy of independence. Now, we could have a lengthy discussion on what led to the events that unfolded, but the fact remains that the policymakers of the time agreed to India's partition and they agreed to the Muslim side's demand of carving out a separate nation. With hearts weighed down by grief and silent tears, Indians embraced this painful reality. However, what unfolded was an immediate heartbreaking saga of bloodshed. Trains filled with bloodied, wounded people and corpses started arriving from Pakistan. It was a harrowing sight. After getting their own way, we expected them to live and let live and yet, they chose not to foster a harmonious coexistence. Time and again, they decided to be at odds with India. They have waged a proxy war against us.

Maybe to ask a little bit of a lighter question, who has the better cricket team, India or Pakistan? The two teams have an epic rivalry on the pitch and more seriously, given the geopolitical tensions that you spoke to, what role do sports and cricket and football play in fostering better relations? I think sports have the power to energize the entire world. The spirit of sports brings people together across different nations. That's why I would never want to see sports being discredited. I truly believe that sports play a major role in human evolution. They're not just games, they connect people on a deeper level. Now, coming to the question of who's better and who's not, when it comes to techniques in sports, I'm not an expert. Only those who specialize in the technical aspects can judge which techniques are superior and who the best players really are. But sometimes the results speak for themselves. Just a few days ago, India and Pakistan played a match. The result reveals, which is the better team. That's how we know.

Yeah, football is one of the great sports that unites not just India, the whole world, and that just shows the power of what sport can do. You recently visited the United States and reinvigorated your friendship with Donald Trump. What do you like about Donald Trump as a friend, as a leader? I'd like to share with you an event that stands out in my memory. Perhaps from that, you'll get a better understanding of the point I'm trying to convey. For example, we had an event in Houston, Howdy Modi. Both President Trump and I were there and the entire stadium was completely packed. A massive crowd at an event in the US is a huge moment. While packed stadiums are common in sports, this was extraordinary for a political rally. The Indian diaspora had gathered in large numbers. Both of us delivered speeches and he sat down below listening to me speak. Now, that's his humility. The President of the United States sitting in the audience while I spoke from the stage, that was a remarkable gesture on his part. After finishing my speech, I stepped down and as we all know, security in the US is extremely strict and thorough. The level of scrutiny there is on a completely different level. I went over to thank him and casually said, "If you don't mind, why don't we take a lap around the stadium? There are so many people here. Let's walk, wave and greet them."

You and Xi Jinping have considered each other friends. How can that friendship be reinvigorated to help de-escalate some of the recent tensions, and resume dialogue and cooperation with China? Look, the relationship between India and China isn't something new. Both nations have ancient cultures and civilizations. Even in the modern world, they play a significant role. If you look at historical records, for centuries, India and China have learned from each other. Together, they have always contributed to the global good in some way. Old records suggest that at one point India and China alone accounted for more than 50% of the world's GDP. That's how massive India's contribution was. And I believe our ties have been extremely strong, with deep cultural connections. If we look back centuries, there's no real history of conflict between us. It has always been about learning from each other and understanding one another. At one time, Buddhism had a profound influence in China, and that philosophy originally came from here.

I'm not very good at this. You keep looking at your watch.

I now have a new life goal of becoming the bee. You mentioned democracy, and not knowing much about government until 2002, but from 2002 to today, you won eight elections that I could count. So many of the elections, over 800 million people vote in India. What does it take to win an election like that, and to win an election of 1.4 billion people where you get to represent those people, the biggest democracy in the world? Well, I've been actively involved in politics for years. Before stepping into active politics, my focus was primarily on organizational work. This also included managing elections and strategizing campaigns, so that was where I dedicated my time. For 24 years, the people of Gujarat and India have placed their trust in me to lead with unwavering dedication and a deep sense of duty. I try to fulfill the sacred duty entrusted to me by the people I revere as divine. I remain committed to honoring their trust, ensuring it never falters. And they see me for what I truly am.

Well, I don't think the word powerful quite reflects the journey of my life. I can never claim to be powerful. For all I am is a humble servant, I even identify myself as not the Prime Minister, but the prime servant, and service is the guiding principle of my work ethic. As far as power is concerned, it is something I have never bothered about. I entered politics not to play power games, but to serve. Rather than seeking power, I stay committed to doing and getting work done. I am more focused on productivity than power. I have always dedicated myself to serving the people. I have always devoted myself to bringing about a positive change in their lives.

I've heard from many people that you are the hardest worker they know. What's your philosophy behind that? Maybe you put in crazy hours every single day. Do you ever get tired? What's your source of strength and perseverance through all of that? Look, first of all, I don't believe I'm the only one working. I look at the people around me and always think these people work harder than I do. When I think about farmers, I realize how hard they work. They toil and sweat under the open sky day after day. When I look at our country's soldiers, I think about how many hours someone spends working tirelessly in snow, deserts, or even underwater day and night. When I see a laborer, I think about how hard they're working. I always think about how hard our mothers and sisters work in every family for the happiness of the family. They're the first to wake up and the last to go to bed, taking care of everyone in the family, while also managing social responsibilities. Thinking of all this, I'm in awe of how hard people work. So I think, "How can I sleep? How can I relax?" So naturally the motivation is right in front of my eyes. Those very things around me keep me motivated.

Me as an engineer, as a person who loves mathematics, I have to ask Srinivasa Ramanujan is an Indian mathematician from a century ago. He's widely considered to be one of the greatest mathematicians of all time. Self-taught, grew up in poverty. You have often spoken about him. What do you find inspiring about him? Look, I deeply respect him, and everyone in my country respects him as well, because I strongly believe there's a deep connection between science and spirituality. If you closely observe many scientifically advanced minds, you'll find they're often spiritually advanced too. They're not disconnected from spirituality. Srinivasa Ramanujan once said that his mathematical ideas came from the goddess he worshiped, meaning ideas emerge from spiritual discipline, and discipline is more than just hard work. It means fully devoting yourself to a task and completely immersing yourself into it so much that you become one with your work.

You have a reputation for being a decisive leader. So can you walk me through on this topic of ideas, how you make decisions? What's your process? So for instance, when facing a high stakes choice with no clear precedence, a lot of uncertainty, having to balance input, how do you make decisions? There are many factors to my decision making. First, I'm perhaps the only politician in India who has stayed overnight in around 85 to 90% of the districts across the country. This was before my current role. I used to travel extensively. I learned a lot from those experiences. They gave me firsthand knowledge of the ground realities and grassroots level issues, not something asked or heard or learned merely from books. Secondly, from a governance perspective, I carry no baggage of any kind. I don't carry any baggage that weighs me down or forces me to act a certain way. Thirdly, I have a simple yardstick for decisions. My country first. I always question if what I'm doing harms my nation in any way. Additionally, Mahatma Gandhi once said that, if you're ever unsure when making a decision, think of the poorest person's face. Remember them and ask yourself, "Will this help them?" Then your decision will be right. That wisdom always guides me, remembering ordinary citizens and considering how my actions affect them.

You gave a powerful speech on AI a few weeks ago at the AI Summit in France. In it you spoke about the talent pool for AI engineers in India. I think it's probably one of the biggest pools of brilliant engineers in the world. So how can India become the leader in the space of AI? Currently lags behind the United States. What does it take for India to start winning and leading the world in AI? One thing I'm about to say might sound strong, and it may even upset some people, but since you've asked, I'll speak openly from my heart. No matter what the world does with AI, it will remain incomplete without India. I'm making this statement very responsibly. Tell me, you've heard my speech at the AI Summit in Paris on global cooperation. What do you think? Can anyone develop AI entirely on their own? What is your perspective on this?

This is one of the big open questions of the 21st century. Every year you host the Pariksha Pe Charcha where you interact directly with young students and give them advice on how to prepare for exams. I watched a bunch of them. So you give advice on how to succeed in exams, how to manage stress, all those kinds of things. Can you explain at a high level the different exams that students in India need to take in their education journey and why it's so stressful? By and large, a strange mindset has developed in society today. Even schools measure their success by students' rankings. Families too feel pride when their child achieves a high rank because they believe it improves their educational and social status. This mentality has resulted in increased pressure on children. Kids also began feeling that their entire lives depend on 10th and 12th grade exams.

And you said, "Always focus on learning." What's your approach to learning? What advice can you give on how to learn best, not just when you're young, throughout your life? Let me share a personal example with you. I used to learn a lot from reading, but these days, more and more, I learn by being fully present. Whenever I meet someone, I am fully present in the moment. I give them my full attention. This complete focus allows me to grasp new concepts quickly.

In this moment, I was wondering if you could guide me perhaps through a Hindu prayer or meditation for a few moments. I learned, I'm trying to learn the Gayatri Mantra. In my fast I was trying to do the chants. Perhaps I could try chanting. You could tell me about the importance of this mantra and maybe others in your life, in your spirituality? Should I try? Yes, please.

In your own spirituality and your quiet moments, when you are with God, where does your mind go? What role do mantras play when you're fasting, when you're just alone with yourself? The word meditation has been overused to the point that it feels like a cliché. In Indian languages, we usually refer to it as dhyan. If I associate dhyan to meditation, it might seem burdensome to some. One might think, "This is too difficult. I'm not an enlightened being." But it's not rocket science. It just means freeing yourself from distraction.

Thank you. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Prime Minister Narendra Modi. And now, let me ask you some questions and try reflect on and articulate some things I've been thinking about. If you would like to submit questions or get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfridman.com/contact. First, let me give a shout out to the amazing team around the Prime Minister. Everyone was super kind, excellent at what they do, efficient, great communication, and just great people all around.

Now, allow me to also comment about one of the books that first drew me toward India and to its deep history of philosophical and spiritual traditions. The book is Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. I first read most of Hesse's major work as a teenager, but then reread them again through the years. It first found me, Siddhartha, when I was immersed in a very different kind of literature of Dostoevsky, Camus, Kafka, Orwell, Hemingway, Kerouac, Steinbeck and so on. Many of these explore the same human condition that puzzled me when I was a young man and still puzzles me today, even more so.