Edward Snowden

The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, Founder and CEO of Telegram, a messaging platform actively used by over 1 billion people. Pavel has spent his life fighting for freedom of speech, building tools that protect human communication from surveillance and censorship. For this, he has faced pressure from some of the most powerful governments and organizations on earth. In the face of this immense pressure, he has always held his ground, continuously fighting to protect user privacy and the freedom of all of us humans to communicate with each other. I got the chance to spend a few weeks with him and can definitively say that he's one of the most principled and fearless humans I've ever met. Plus, when I posted that I'm hanging out with Pavel, a lot of people, fans of his, wrote to me asking if he does, in fact, privately live the disciplined ascetic life he's known for. No alcohol, stoic mindset, strict diet and exercise, including a crazy amount of daily pull-ups and push-ups. No phone, except to occasionally test Telegram features, and so on. Yes, he's 100% that guy, which made the experience of hanging out with him really inspiring to me. I'm grateful for it and I'm grateful to now be able to call him a friend. This podcast conversation is in parts philosophical, about freedom, life, human nature, and the nature of government bureaucracies. And it is also in parts super technical because to me, it's fascinating that Telegram has a relatively small engineering team and yet is able to basically out-innovate all of its competitors with an insane rate of introducing new, unique features. Just like the meme of the Simpsons did it first, when you consider all the features we know and love in our communication apps, in almost every case, Telegram did it first. So we discuss it all, from the Kafkaesque situation he's in the midst of France, to the roller coaster of his life and career, to his philosophy on technology, freedom, and the human condition.

You've been an advocate for freedom for many years, writing that you should be ready to risk everything for freedom. What were some influences and insights that help you arrive at this value of human freedom? I get to experience the difference between a society with freedom and a society without freedom pretty early in life. I was four years old when my family moved from the Soviet Union to northern Italy, and I could see that a society without freedom cannot enjoy the abundance of opinions, of ideas, of goods and services. Even for a four or five-year-old kid, it was obvious. You can't experience all the toys, the ice cream of sorts, the cartoons in the Soviet Union that you can access in Italy. And then I got to realize something even more important. You don't get to contribute to this abundance without freedom. And at this point it was pretty obvious to me.

In many ways you live a pretty stoic existence. I got a chance to spend a couple of weeks with you. In many ways, you seek to minimize the negative effects of the outside world on your mind. You've written, quote, "If you want to reach your full potential and maintain clarity of mind, stay away from addictive substances. My success and health are the result of 20 plus years of complete abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, pills, and illegal drugs. Short-term pleasure isn't worth your future." Let's talk about each one of these. Alcohol. What's been your philosophy behind that? That one is quite easy. When I was 11 years old, my biochemistry teacher, he gave me this book he wrote, it was called The Illusion of Paradise, and there he would describe the biological and chemical processes that happen in your body once you consume this or that substance. It was mainly related to illegal drugs, but alcohol was one of these addictive substances that he covered. So it turns out that when you drink alcohol, the thing that happens is that your brain cells become paralyzed. They become literally zombies. And then next day, sometime after the party is over, some of your brain cells die and never get to normal. So think about this. If your brain is this most valuable tool you have in your journey to success and happiness, why would you destroy this tool for short-term pleasure? This sounds ridiculous.

Yeah, majority of the population becomes slaves to the AI-driven recommender systems, and so the content everybody's fed is the same thing and we all become the same. On that point, one of the different things you do is, you don't use a phone except occasionally to test Telegram features, but I've been with you for two weeks, I haven't seen you use a phone at all in the way that most people use a phone, like for their social media. So can you describe your philosophy behind that? I don't think a phone is a necessary device. I remember growing up, I didn't have a mobile phone. When I was a student at the university, I didn't have a mobile phone. When I finally got to use a mobile phone, I never used phone calls. I was always in airplane mode or mute. I hated the idea of being disturbed. My philosophy here is pretty simple, I want to define what is important in my life. I don't want other people or companies, all kinds of organizations telling me what is important today, and what I should be thinking about. Just set up your own agenda and the phone gets in your way.

I've seen you be, once again, quite stoic about your emotions. You ever get angry? You ever get lonely? You ever get sad? The roller coaster of human emotion, and what do you do with that when you make difficult decisions? I'm a human being like everybody else. I do get to experience emotions. Some of them are not very pleasant, but I believe that it's the responsibility of every one of us to cope with these emotions and to learn to work through them. Self-discipline is particularly important because without it, how can you overcome this seemingly endless loop of negativity or despair that ultimately leads to depression for some people? I normally never have depression. I don't remember having depression in the last 20 years, at least. Maybe when I was a teenager. But one of the reasons for that is I start doing things.

All right. We took a break and now we're back. I got to ask you about Telegram, the company. I got to meet some of the brilliant engineers that worked there. Telegram runs lean relative to other technology companies that achieve the scale that Telegram does. It has very few employees. So, how many people are on the core team? Let's say the core engineering team. The core engineering team is about 40 people. This includes back-end, front-end, designers, system administrators.

On this topic, I'd love to talk to you about the recent saga of you being arrested in the August of last year in France. I think I should say that it's one of the worst overreaches of power I've seen as applied to a tech leader in recent history, in all history. So, it's tragic, but I think speaks to the thing that we've been talking about. So, maybe can you tell the full saga what happened? You arrived in France. I arrived in France last year in August just for a short two-day trip and then I see a dozen of armed policemen greeting me and asked me to follow them. They read me a list of something like 15 serious crimes that I'm accused of, which was mind-boggling. At first, I thought there must be some mistake. Then I realized they're being serious and they're accusing me of all possible crimes that the users of Telegram have allegedly committed or some users and they think I should be responsible for this, which again, like you said, it's something that never happened in the history of this planet. No country, not even an authoritarian one did that to any tech leader, at least at this scale.

Let me ask you about an example of the thing you're talking about. Tell the saga of Telegram in the Romanian election. So, amidst all this, you are still fighting to preserve the freedom of speech. What happened and what were some of the decisions you had to make? So, when I got stuck in France unable to leave the country for a few months, I was offered to meet the head of state foreign intelligence services through a person I know quite well, he's actually a well-known tech entrepreneur in France and he's well-connected and he said, "This guy wants to meet you." I said, "Okay, fine, let's do that but I'm not promising anything." I took the meeting and, in this meeting, I was asked to restrict what I see as restriction of freedom of speech in Romania. I don't know if you followed the whole saga with the Romanian elections, they had a presidential elections last year, the results got canceled. Now, Romania, at that point when I had this meeting, was preparing for a new presidential elections, the conservative candidate was not somebody who the French government was supportive of so they asked me whether I would be shutting down or ready to shut down channels on Telegram. Let's support the conservative candidate or protest against the pro-European candidates so they called the guy they liked.

Yeah, these things become a slippery slope. So, you've, for many, many years, including currently, have spoken very highly of France, you love French history, French culture. I think this situation, this historic wrong that's been done is, put simply, is just a gigantic PR mistake for France. There's no entrepreneur that sees, that aspires to be the next Pavel Durov to create the next Telegram, sees this and wants to operate in France after seeing this. There is no justification for this arrest, there's a misapplication of the law, all kinds of pressures, all kinds of behavior that seems politically motivated, all that kind of stuff, all the excessive regulation and the bureaucracy, a nightmare for entrepreneurs that dream to create something impactful and positive for the world. So, what do you think needs to be fixed about the French government, the French system and then, zooming out, because you see similar kinds of things in Europe, that could enable entrepreneurs, that could reverse the trend that we seem to be seeing in Europe that is becoming less and less friendly to entrepreneurs? What can be fixed? What should be fixed?

All right, we had some tea, we're back. Let's go back a bunch of years to the beginning. You mentioned you went to school with super intensive education so I thought it'd be really interesting to look at some of the powerful aspects of that education from the languages to the math. Can you actually describe some of the rigorous aspects of it and what you gained from it? At the age of 11, I got the opportunity to enter an experimental school in St. Petersburg where I lived and you had to pass a rigorous test to get accepted. The idea behind the school was that, if you try to squeeze as much information as possible into a brain of a teenager making a focus on maths and foreign languages, then there will be some changes in the brain of the student that will allow the student to understand most other disciplines. But we had a class, as a result, that didn't have any single focus, it was very widespread across a lot of disciplines. You would have four foreign languages at least including Latin, English, French, German, in addition, you can get ancient Greek. You would have classes like biochemistry or psychoanalysis, evolutionary psychology. The difference of this class as opposed to other classes in the same school which was part of the St. Petersburg State University called academic gymnasium was that, unlike other classes which were specialized in some single subject like physics or maths or history, this one tried to get the best from all of these specialized classes and bring into one curriculum. Since it was an experimental class, it wasn't possible to become a straight A student, to be excellent in all the subject, it's always considered crazy to even try.

Speaking of competition, your brother, Nikolai, he's a mathematician, programmer, expert in cryptography. He has won the IMO International Mathematics Olympiad, he got gold medal three times, ICPC programming, two times, has two PhDs in mathematics, and you have worked together for many years creating incredible technologies that we've been talking about. So what have you learned about just life from your brother? Well, first of all, I must say I learned pretty much everything from my brother, everything I know, because when we were used to be kids, we slept in the same bedroom, like beds a few feet away from each other, and I kept bugging him with questions. I would ask him about dinosaurs and galaxies and black holes and Neanderthals, everything I could think of, and he was my Wikipedia back in the time when we didn't have internet access. He's a unique prodigy kid, probably one of a billion.

So we should say that also you didn't mention, but you were a programmer from an early age. You started coding at 10. First things you built are a video game at 11, and then eventually 10 years later, 21, you programmed the initial versions of VK single-handedly. Can you talk to me about your programming journey that led to the creation of VK? What was the VK stack? Is it PHP mostly? How did you figure out how to program websites, all of that? Yeah, I wasn't as interested in probably websites at first. I didn't even have access to the internet when I was 10 years old, but I liked video games. I didn't have enough of them and the scarcity forced me to start building them, more computer games, just to play myself.

So after that, when I got into the St. Petersburg State University, it was quite boring just to study because it was too easy. So I thought, "What can I do there?" I created a website for the students of my faculty first. I organized the creation of digital answers to all exams and digitalized version of all lectures, which was something very unique back then. Remember, it was 25 years ago. I would put together a website where I would publish all this materials, and pretty soon it became super popular. I opened a discussion forum there. In a few years, I expanded to the university with all of its other departments, and then to other universities. We ended up having tens of thousands of users just as a student's portal. We had all kinds of social features there, friends lists, photo albums, profiles, blogs. All of it. It was quite successful, and after I graduated the university, one of my ex-classmates from the school reached out to me after reading about my successes in a newspaper, the main business newspaper of St. Petersburg, and he asked me, "Are you trying to build a Russian Facebook?" I said, "I'm not sure. What's Facebook?" So we met. Since he graduated an American university two years before that, he showed me Facebook. I thought, "Well, I can't already have all of this technology, but it's valuable to know which elements I should get rid of in order to scale this thing and have millions of users."

That is so important to understand and so wise that it's actually, if you're just a little bit careless as a developer, you can introduce inefficiencies that are going to be very difficult to track down because you don't know that it can be faster. The code doesn't scream at you saying, "This could be much faster." So you have to actually, as a craftsman, be very careful when you're writing a code and always thinking, "Can this be done much more efficiently?" And it can be tiny things because they all propagate throughout the code, and so there's a real cost in having a careless developer anywhere in the company because they can introduce that inefficiency and all the other developers won't know. They'll just assume it kind of has to be that way. So there's a real responsibility for every single individual developer that's building any component of an app like Telegram to just always ask, "Okay, can this be done more efficiently? Can this be done more simply?" And that's one of the most beautiful aspects, the art forms of programming, right?

Because of that, you're extremely selective and slow in hiring. People really have to earn their spot and then as a result, I got a chance to sit in one of the team meetings where people discuss the different features that are being developed, the different ideas, some of which are at the very cutting edge and so you get to see behind the scenes how it's possible to have such a fast rate of idea generation. You generate the idea, you implement the prototype and then eventually it becomes an actual feature in the product. That's why you have this kind of half hilarious, half incredible fact that for many, as compared to WhatsApp and Signal, you've led the way on many other features. Many of the features we take for granted now, many of which we know and love, like the auto-delete timer. That was seven years ahead of any other messenger. Message editing, replies. These are all obvious things I've even forgotten for some of them that they were never part. I think auto-delete timer is a really brilliant idea. We implemented in 2013 in the Secret Chats. Funny thing about it is then when other apps started to copy it, WhatsApp seven years after and then Signal and some other of these apps, they initially even copied the exact timestamps. For example, if we had one, three and five seconds, they would also have one, three and five seconds. They tried not to change it because they were not sure what was the magic sauce behind the feature. Ironically, it happens with many of these things. For example, when we design how you reply to a message and you have a small snippet showing that you're replying to this message and now you're typing your response, then there is a small snippet into the message itself that if you tap on it highlights the original message you're replying to. Seems pretty obvious, but there are certain design decisions that we were implementing at the time and we got this vertical line on the left and all these other small things that are completely arbitrary, you can do it in a different way, but somehow the entire industry ended up copying exactly that solution. Now whenever you go to WhatsApp, Instagram direct, Facebook Messenger, Signal, it doesn't matter, you would see exactly the same or pretty much similar experience because nobody really wants to take the risk and innovate. If something works, why not just copy it?

Another feature, on the more serious side, is end-to-end encryption. You led the industry in that. It was launched one year and three months ahead. Can you speak to why you decided to add end-to-end encryption and how you developed the encryption algorithm in the beginning? What was your thinking behind that? At 2013 when we were launching Telegram, we were aware of the serious issue with privacy that Edward Snowden made very clear. We thought, yes, we're designing this product in a way that is already extremely secure, but we want to make sure that not even we can access user messages. We understood very clearly that a bunch of people who were born in Russia don't necessarily inspire trust. That's why we made Telegram open source, so all our apps have been available on GitHub since 2013 and then we added end-to-end encryption in our Secret Chats, which WhatsApp copied a few years after. One year and three months ahead they just started to test it. They rolled this out I think 2016, which is three years after us and the only reason I think the rest of the industry had to do it is because we set the standard.

We should say that there's a lot of other aspects to this that are important. For example, Telegram is the only app that has open source reproducible builds for both Android and iOS. Why is this important? You need reproducible builds in order to verify that the app really does what it claims, really encrypts data in a way that it is described on its website. For that you need to make your apps open source for any researchers to have a look at it. Telegram has been open source since 2013. Apps like WhatsApp have never been open source, so you don't really know what they're doing and how exactly they encrypt your messages. What's important here though is to understand whether the version of the app that you download from the app store corresponds exactly to the source code that you can view on GitHub. For that you need reproducible builds.

You yourself have faced the full force of various governments, intelligence agencies. Is there any intelligence agency you're afraid of? Any government you're afraid of? I think they should be equally afraid of or equally not afraid of, in a way. It's not that intelligence services can kill you and the other can't kill you.

You went through a lot from 2011 to 2014, government pressure that you refused to give into, that led you to create Telegram and let go of VK. Then in 2018, Russia and Iran decided to ban Telegram. That was another example of pressure. Can you take me through that saga in 2018? In 2018 Telegram started to become popular. I think we had something like 200 million users and it increasingly became popular in places like Iran and Russia and other countries where sometimes people have something to hide from the government. In Iran, people use Telegram to protest against the government. They had these huge channels that they would use to organize the protests and eventually the government couldn't keep up. They decided to ban Telegram. People would still keep using it though using VPNs. It didn't help. The government invested a lot in coming up with their own messaging app. They had several teams competing for the title of the nationally reigning messaging app. All these apps failed. People still preferred Telegram. Interestingly, Iran banned Telegram, but WhatsApp wasn't banned.

We ended up spending I think, millions of dollars on that. And as a result, the sensor got crazy there. They would ban IP addresses and large subnets of IP addresses and huge subnets, which resulted in a weird situation where parts of the country's infrastructure started to go down. People were trying to pay for groceries in the supermarkets and nothing would work because the Russian sensor blocked too many IP addresses and some of the subnets were used to host other unrelated services. Even some Russian social networks and media got affected. Banks. So they had to start being more selective in how they combat our anti-censorship tools. The biggest resistance we got at the time was from Apple. Apple didn't allow us to update Telegram in the app store saying for at least four weeks that we have to come to an agreement with Russia first who said it's not possible. They said, "We will allow you to push your update for Telegram worldwide except for Russia." We didn't want to do that. Almost lost hope. At some point I said, "Maybe this is the only way. Maybe we should leave the Russian market. Stop allowing users from Russia to download the app from the app store." Which would mean it's over. We helped organize certain protests in defense of Telegram and privacy and freedom of speech in 2018 in Moscow. There was hilarious people flying paper airplanes.

That's ingenious. That's really great to hear. I have to ask you about this. After having spent many days with you, I learned of something that you've never talked about at the time, have not talked about to this day, that there was an assassination attempt on you using what appears to be poisoning in 2018. I think to me, it showed this seriousness of this fight to uphold the freedom of speech for everyone, for all people of earth that you're doing. I have to say it would mean a lot to me if you tell me this story. Well, this is something I never talked about publicly because I didn't want people to freak out particularly at the time, it was spring 2018. We were trying to raise funds for TON, a blockchain project working with all kinds of VCs and investors. In the meantime, we had a couple of countries trying to ban Telegram. So it wasn't exactly the best moment for me to start sharing anything related to my personal health. But that was something that is hard to forget. I never fall ill. I believe I have perfect health. I very rarely have headaches or bad cough. I don't take pills because I don't have to take pills. And that was the only instant in my life when I think I was dying.

I have to ask you about the big picture Telegram. We've already talked about the fact that you own 100% of it, and there's a lot of on the business side of it, the business structure of Telegram is fascinating. You've invested hundred, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars of your money. As far as I know, you take a salary of what, $1. One dirham is one third of that.

Plus there's a bot API. And I mean you have to tell me about the TON blockchain and the crypto ecosystem available through Telegram. So what is TON aka The Open Network blockchain? TON is a blockchain technology that we initially developed in 2018 and 2019, and we started to develop it because we needed a blockchain platform to be integrated deeply into Telegram because we believe in blockchain. We think it's one of the technologies that enable freedom. But at the time, if you look at Bitcoin, if you look at Ethereum, they were not scalable enough to cope with the load that our hundreds of millions of users would create. They would just become congested. And I asked my brother, "Can we create a blockchain platform that would be inherently scalable so that no matter how many users or transactions there are, it would split into smaller pieces?" which we call ShardChains and would still process all transactions. And he thought for a few days and said, "Yes, it's possible, but it's not easy." And we started building it.

And mini apps include games, they include tools, services of any kind. It's an app within the ecosystem of Telegram. Let me ask you about crypto in general. So you've been an early supporter of cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin. You've bought in into Bitcoin early on. You kept buying. Maybe you could speak to the reasoning why you kept buying Bitcoin. Do you think Bitcoin will go to a million dollars? Do you think it'll keep increasing, Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies? I was a big believer in Bitcoins since more or less the start of it. I got to buy my first few thousands of Bitcoin in 2013, and I didn't care much. I think I bought at the local maximum, it's something like $700 per Bitcoin and I just threw a couple of millions there. A lot of people after Bitcoin later next year, went down somewhere close to 300, 200. Started to express their sympathy to me. So, "Poor Pavel. You made this horrible mistake investing in this new thing, but don't feel bad about it. We still have some respect for you." And my response to them were, "I don't care. I'm not going to sell it. I believe in this thing. I think this is the way money should work. Nobody can confiscate your Bitcoin from you. Nobody can censor you for political reasons."

Let me ask you a deeply philosophical serious question. In your first Telco interview, you had two interesting chairs in the background. I think they reference a now legendary meme. The choice is Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные (Russian: "Sharpened pikes or jerked-off cocks.") What is the philosophical wisdom in the dilemma that these two chairs present? Have you had to face the dilemma yourself personally? Not this exact dilemma. I think this is a riddle that people have to face in Russian prisons. And metaphorically, it's describing all the situations where you're presented a choice between two suboptimal options. When you're running a big business or when you're running a large country, it is similar. You sometimes face this dilemma, what are you going to do, this very horrible thing or this also very horrible thing? So I think the right answer to this riddle is not to do any of these things. Reframe the question, design a solution that turns a disadvantage into an advantage and then use it to cope with the other side of the problem. So do you know the answer to that riddle?

There seems to be some confusion over how many kids you have. It's often said to be over 100. Can you explain how many kids you have? The truthful answer to this question is I don't really know how many biological kids I have exactly. Because at a certain point in my life, about 15 years ago, I decided that it was a good idea to be a sperm donor. Initially, a friend of mine asked me to help because they were trying to have a baby with his wife, and they experienced certain health issues that prevented them to do the natural way. And he asked me, he told me, "We don't want to just rely on some random anonymous genetic material. We want somebody we know and respect to be the biological father of our kid." And I said, "You got to be kidding me. Sounds ridiculous. What are we even talking about?"

Your father recently celebrated his 80th birthday. You had a conversation with him. He gave you some life advice. I think you mentioned to me one of the things he said was not to just speak of your principles, but to live them, to lead by example. I think this is something you already do well. Maybe can you speak to what you've learned about life from your father, maybe some of the lessons he told you in the conversation you've had with him on his birthday. I'm incredibly lucky to have my father. He's a person who wrote countless books on Ancient Rome and Ancient Roman literature, dozens of scientific papers, and I always remember him working. He would be busy typing his books and articles in an old-school typewriter back in the late '80s, early '90s. He was relentless. The example he said to myself and my brother was priceless. Some people make this mistake of thinking that you can instill the right principles in the future generation or into your kids by saying things to them, but kids are smart. They discount words, they look at the actions. So observing our father was a big lesson by itself. It wasn't necessary for him to say anything to us. And then at the same time, he was incredibly patient, emotionally resilient.

Another thing we've talked about, which I think is a fascinating topic, is the power of the mind, power of thought. Do you believe you can affect your life and reality by thinking about it, by manifesting it into being? What do you think? There are many explanations why it works. One thing most people agree on is that setting goals and staying positive and confident does allow you to achieve the things you want to achieve. It's very hard to believe though that you can just manifest things into being without applying effort in the direction that seems to be logical. Maybe some people exist that can just sit on the bank of a river and materialize things by the power of their thought. But I'm not sure I'm one of these people. I always found it more easy to believe that if you couple this optimism and faith with logical action, then it is bound to be successful.

I'd like to use this opportunity to talk about Franz Kafka, one of my favorite writers. The reason he has been on my mind is that his work The Trial and the case of Pavel Durov in France has, let's say, eerie parallels, both metaphorically and literally. Of course, The Trial is a work of fiction, but I think it is often useful to go to the surreal world of literature, even over-the-top dystopian variety like 1984, Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Trial, The Castle Metamorphosis, even The Plague by Albert Camus, all to understand our real world and the destructive paths we have the potential to go down together, which also hopefully helps us understand how to avoid doing so. So let me zoom out and speak about Franz Kafka. Who was he? He was an insurance clerk who wrote at night. He died young and almost completely unknown, and he asked for his manuscripts to be burned. Luckily for us, his friend, Max Brod refused to do so, giving us the work of what I consider to be one of 20th century's greatest writers. In his work, Kafka wrote about the cold machine-like reduction of humans to case files through the labyrinth of institutional power. He wrote about an individual's feeling of guilt even when a crime has not been committed, or more generally, he wrote about the feeling of anxiety that is part of the human condition in our modern, chaotic world.