Compromise and leverage

I hope the Kyiv Airport will open soon then it will be easier to fly in. Yes. I think that the war will end and President Trump may be the first leader to travel here by airplane. I think it would be symbolic by airplane.

The following is a conversation with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine. It was an intense, raw and heartfelt conversation, my goal for which, was to understand and to do all I can to push for peace. Please allow me to say a few words first about language, then about the President, and finally about history. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation if you like. We spoke in a mix of languages, continuously switching from Ukrainian to Russian to English, so the interpreter was barely hanging on. It was indeed in many ways a wild ride of a conversation. As the President said, "The first of many. Language, like many other things in a time of war is a big deal." We had a choice, speaking Russian, Ukrainian or English. The President does speak some English, but he's far from fluent in it and I sadly don't speak Ukrainian yet, so Russian is the only common language we're both fluent. In case you don't know, the Russian language is one that the President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. It's the language I also speak fluently to the degree I speak any language fluently, as does a large fraction of the Ukrainian population. So the most dynamic and powerful conversation between us would be in Russian without an interpreter, who in this case added about two to three second delay and frankly translated partially and poorly for me at least, taking away my ability to feel the humor, the wit, the brilliance, the pain, the anger, the humanity of the person sitting before me, that I could clearly feel when he was speaking fluently in the language I understand, Russian. But all that said, war changes everything. The Ukrainian language has become a symbol of the Ukrainian people's fight for freedom and independence, so we had a difficult choice of three languages and faced with that choice, we said yes to all three.

If we can explain why the Ukrainian language is very important, our conversation will be most effective and impactful if we speak in Russian. I speak Russian perfectly of course, and I understand everything you are talking about. However, I can't respond in Russian the entire interview. It's because this is how it is today. I'm not making anything up. You can see it all for yourself. You can feel and hear it. Today, there were 73 missile attacks against us and people were killed. There were over 100 drones today, and this is a daily occurrence. The people who attack us, they speak Russian. They attack people who were only recently told that this was actually in defense of Russian-speaking people, and this is why I respect neither the leader or director of today's Russia, nor the people. That's it. And I don't think that you can just pretend that nothing's happening and give Putin a pass once again for saying that, "We are one people, that we speak one language," et cetera. They speak the language of weapons. That is a fact, and we are peaceful people. Peaceful people who want to protect themselves and defend their freedom and their human choice. At the beginning of the war, I addressed Russians in Russian, zero effect. They're mute.

If we can go back many years, World War II, tell me the story of your grandfather who fought in World War II. My grandfather, he graduated from the military academy, and from the very beginning of the war, he went to fight. He was in the infantry and he fought through the entire war. He had many wounds, as they used to say back then, "His chest is covered in medals," and it's true. He had more than 30? Yes, more than 30. He was the kind of man... He was such a serious man. I loved him very much, and we had a very close relationship. He didn't like to tell details about the war. He never boasted, although I asked him as a boy would, "How many fascists did you kill?" He never talked about it. He believed that the war was a great tragedy. A tragedy for everyone. And Ukraine was occupied, and it was a tragedy for Ukraine, a tragedy for Europe, and a tragedy for the Jewish people.

Well, at that moment on February 24th, 2022, everything changed again. Just like in June 1941, everything changed and history took a turn. The history of humanity took a turn and for you too, you were the president. You were talking about fighting corruption, about the country's freedom, about interesting and innovative reforms but that morning of February 22nd, everything changed. Could you tell me about that morning, the details of your actions when you had to quickly make difficult decisions? What was the process for you? How did you make these decisions? Did you discuss them with people you trust to understand how to respond to this invasion in every technical, political and military aspect? What was the process for you? How did you make the decision? According to our legislation, in principle, I am the supreme commander of the Armed forces of Ukraine, so I had to give corresponding orders. Yes, I have a military office and then later there was a military headquarters where all key people gathered. This is not only about the military, it's about energy, et cetera, all key things. But at that moment, I made the decisions quickly and without a doubt and I cannot say that I am just that kind of person. I'm just a living person who believed that if help is needed right now to help, to help evacuate people, help with children. Several cities were blocked. I was only thinking about how to deliver food there within a day. We did a lot of things, although we understood that they in fact occupy part of our state.

I disagree with you here. I think and hope that many people in Russia will hear us today. They blocked YouTube recently. Are you aware of this? In their country.

To make it clear, let's describe the idea that you are speaking about. I would like to offer you other ideas too. But right now, your idea is that NATO accepts Ukraine, minus the five regions of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and Crimea.

Okay. Once again, without NATO guarantees, I have a dream that, let's say, on January 25 or sometime at the end of January this year, you will sit down with Donald Trump, with Vladimir Putin. And together negotiate a ceasefire with strict security guarantees and an agreement will be signed. What will this look like without NATO?

If you believe this, it will be very difficult to negotiate. If you think that the president of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him. You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country. And he conducts, yes, destructive military actions. Who are you talking about now? Who loves his country?

Can I ask about Donald Trump? We've already mentioned him a lot, but let's focus there. What do you admire? What do you respect about Donald Trump? And also maybe why do you think he won overwhelmingly the election in 2024, that American people chose him? He was stronger. He was much more stronger than Kamala Harris. Biden first and then Kamala Harris. Yes. He showed that he can intellectually and physically. It wasn't important point to show that if you want to have a strong country, you have to be strong. And he was strong. And this number of rallies, what I said is not a simple thing. He showed that he can. He's strong. So he doesn't have any questions with his, I mean this age and et cetera. Nothing. He is young. He is young here and his brain works. So I think it's important, very important. And of course a lot of interior questions.

We've been talking for two hours. Have to pause. You want to take the break? We will make a pause. We can have coffee, right? Coffee.

As I said, the dream I have is it's a historic opportunity to make peace, to make lasting peace soon. So I'm glad you're focused on that. Let me ask a question that a lot of people in the United States think about, and I care a lot about the future of Ukraine is corruption. This is something you have cared a lot about for a long time. You won the presidency in 2019, in big part your message of fighting corruption. But there's a lot of accusations that during war, I mentioned $9 trillion in the United States, war breeds corruption. So can you speak to that, how you have been fighting corruption and can you respond to the accusations there has been corruption in Ukraine? It's very simple. First of all, we really have a very sophisticated anti-corruption system. Sophisticated not in the sense that it's difficult to understand, but in that it really consists of many elements. It's the most sophisticated in all of Europe. This is another requirement of the European Union. It was a requirement for Ukraine and for many years, Ukraine was not trusted. I want to tell you that under me, we all voted for bills, all the anti-corruption reforms, well, almost all reforms and all anti-corruption bodies today are independent. They work as requested. I still believe that they are not perfect yet. There are many issues. There is a judicial system, but also a judicial reform that our partners, the United States plus the EU, demanded from us. This is all written out. This is written out in specific laws, in specific decrees, in specific decisions. We did this, we've done 99% of this.

I mentioned Elon Musk. I would be interested to hear what you think of him, why you respect him as a person, as an engineer, as an innovator, as a businessman. I would just like to hear from you, what do you think about Elon Musk? First of all, I had a conversation with him at the beginning of the war. I talked with him. I respect him, first and foremost. I respect the self-made man, right?

And you, by the way, before I forget, let me ask, are you coming on January 20th for President Trump's inauguration? I would like to, of course. I will be considering what is happening then in the war because there are moments of difficulties, escalation, many missiles, etc. But honestly, well, I can't. I can't come especially during the war, unless President Trump invites me personally. I'm not sure it's proper to come because I know that in general, leaders are for some reason not usually invited to the inauguration of presidents of the United States of America. Well, and I know that there are leaders who can simply come, want to come and will come. Yeah, I know. And I know the temperament of some of these people. They can come at their discretion. This is very, very difficult for me. I am the kind of person that cannot come without an invitation. This is Putin. We did not invite him. He came to us, so to say. And me, I can't do that.

All right, let's get back to a serious question. Sometimes they say it in America, this question of who is really in power? So let me ask, is someone controlling you? For example, oligarchs, American politicians, Yermak? I wanted to bring this up because I have been here in Ukraine twice since the invasion of 2022. And one of the things I've learned well is that actually nobody controls you. And this is one of your strengths as a president, as a person that oligarchs and other rich and powerful people like that cannot control you. Can you explain why that is? How you see it? I think, and it is indeed true that I'm generally difficult to deal with. I am an ambitious person. I can't submit to anyone. I can live by rules, by laws. I believe that this is the only thing that can control any person today. These are the rules and laws of the society or state where you live. And I believe that this is the most important thing. There's no person who could control me as I once told President Trump when we had a meeting. By the way, journalists asked if Trump influenced me during the phone call. I told the journalist the truth then, who can influence me? Only my boy, my son. This is a fact. When he calls asking for something, well, then I lift up my arms, yes, and I cannot do anything about it because children are children. I have so little time with them. And therefore when there are these moments, they are precious and important to me. I am ready to do anything.

Okay, one last question. The future of Ukraine. If you look 5, 10, 20 years into the future, what can help Ukraine flourish economically, culturally, politically in the future? Digital, it's very important. Digitalization of all the process. We began this work. We have special ministry of digital transformation.

Thank you for listening to this conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. And now let me answer some questions and try to reflect on and articulate some things I've been thinking about. If you would like to submit questions, including in audio and video form, go to lexfridman.com/ama. Or to contact me for whatever other reason, go to lexfridman.com/contact. First, I got a bunch of questions about this, so let me chat about the topic of language and let's say the mechanics of multilingual conversation. Perhaps the details are interesting to some people. It also allows me to reflect back on the puzzle of it in this episode and what I can do better next time. I already explained in the intro the symbolic, historic, and geopolitical complexity of the choice of language in the conversation with President Zelenskyy. As I said, the Russian language is one that the president speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. I speak Russian fluently as well. It's the only common language we are both fluent in, so any other combination of languages required an interpreter, including when I spoke English. He did need an interpreter when I spoke English, and just like I was, was visibly encumbered and annoyed by the process of interpretation. This is why I tried to speak in Russian to the president instead of English, so that he can directly understand me without an interpreter.

All right, I got a question on how I prepare for podcasts. This has evolved and expanded more and more over time. There are some podcasts that I prepare hundreds of hours for. In AI terms, let's say, first, I'm training a solid background model by consuming as much variety on the topic as possible. A lot of this comes down to picking high-signal sources, whether it's blogs, books, podcasts, YouTube videos, X accounts, and so on. For this conversation with President Zelenskyy, for example, since February 2022 I've spoken with hundreds of people on the ground, I've read Kindle or audiobook, about 10 books fully, and then I skimmed about 20 more. And I don't mean books about Zelenskyy, although he does appear in some of them, I mean books where this conversation was fully in the back of my mind as I'm reading the book. For example, I read Red Famine by Anne Applebaum. It's about Holodomor. Does it directly relate to Zelenskyy? Not on the surface, no. But it continues to weave the fabric of my understanding of a people, of a history of the region.

All right, I got a bit of a fun question. It's a long one. Delian, cool name, wrote in saying he spotted me out in the wild and had a question about it. He wrote, "I saw Lex working at the Detroit Airport between flights. I hesitated and ultimately decided not to interrupt since he was in focus mode." True. "Lex had his headphones, earbuds on," listening to brown noise, "Microsoft's surface propped up at eye level, Kinesis Advantage keyboard on the table. The use of Microsoft Windows is surprising, but it has been discussed in the past." True. "The ergonomics of the setup surface at eye level means that Lex cares about his health. But the anomalously large Kinesis advantage keyboard seems like such a burden to lug around airports. I cannot help but ask why is it that Lex is going through the hassle to bring this absolutely large keyboard with him as carry-on? It barely fits in a backpack. Carrying it around must be necessary for Lex for some reason." I love the puzzle of this, that you're trying to think through this. "The pain of lugging this tool around must be much smaller than the problem it solves for it? What problem does this keyboard solve? What makes it necessary at the airport? Productivity? Health? RSI?" Good questions. Thank you, Delia. Great question. It made me smile, so I thought I'd answer. I remember that day. There was something else about that day, aside from the keyboard that I miss, so I am filled with a melancholy feeling that is appropriate for the holiday season. Let me try to set the melancholy feeling aside, answer a question about my computer setup when I'm traveling. Whether I'm going to SF, Boston, Austin, London, or the front in Ukraine, I am always bringing the Kinesis keyboard. I don't have RSI or any other health issues of that kind that I'm aware of, even though I've been programming, playing guitar, doing all kinds of combat sports my whole life, all of which put my hands and fingers in a lot of precarious positions and situations. For that reason, and in general, ergonomics have never been a big concern for me. I can work on a crappy chair and a table, sleep on the floor. It's all great. I'm happy with all of it.

All right, I think it's time to bring things to close. I'd like to give a big thanks to you for giving me your time and your support over the years. It means the world. If you want to get in touch with me, go to lexfridman.com/contact. There you can give feedback, ask questions, request guests for the podcast, or submit the Coffee with Lex form if you just want to chat with me over a cup of coffee. I'll be traveling across the world a bunch this year, from Europe to South America and more, so it would be cool to do some small meetups and meet some interesting people. This has been a journey of a lifetime. Thank you for everything. Onto the next adventure. I love you all.