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I hope with my books I'm saying, "This isn't a how-to guide, but this is somebody you can walk alongside." You can see Einstein growing up Jewish in Germany. You can see Jennifer Doudna growing up or as an outsider, or Leonardo da Vinci or Elon Musk, in really violent South Africa with a psychologically difficult father, and getting off the train when he goes to an anti-apartheid concert with his brother and there's a man with a knife sticking out of his head, and they step into the pool of blood and it's sticky on their soles. This causes scars that last the rest of your life. The question is not how do you avoid getting scarred, it's how do you deal with it. The following is a conversation with Walter Isaacson, one of the greatest biography writers ever, having written incredible books on Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Leonardo da Vinci, Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Kissinger, and now a new one on Elon Musk. We talked for hours, on and off the mic. I'm sure we'll talk many more times. Walter is a truly special writer, thinker, observer, and human being.

Well, it's not a requirement. Some people with happy childhoods do quite well, but it certainly is true that a lot of really driven people are driven because they're harnessing the demons of their childhood. Even Barack Obama's sentence in his memoirs, which is, I think, "Every successful man is either trying to live up to the expectations of his father or live down the sins of his father." For Elon it's especially true, because he had both a violent and difficult childhood and a very psychologically problematic father. He's got those demons dancing around in his head, and by harnessing them, it's part of the reason that he does riskier, more adventurous, wilder things than maybe I would ever do. You've written that Elon talked about his father, and that at times it felt like mental torture, the interaction with him during his childhood. Can you describe some of the things you've learned?

I hope this book inspires. Jennifer Doudna, the gene editing pioneer who helps discover CRISPR, the gene editing tool, which in my book, The Code Breaker, she grew up feeling like a misfit in Hawaii in a Polynesian village, being the only white person, and also trying to live up to a father who pushed her. If people can read the books ... and I should have said about Jennifer Doudna, my point was that she was told by her school guidance counselor, "No, girls don't do science. Science is not for girls. You're not going to do math or science." It pushes her to say, "All right, I'm going to do math and science." Just to interrupt real quick, but Jennifer Doudna, you've written an amazing book about her. A Nobel Prize winner, CRISPR developer, just incredible. One of the great scientists in the 21st century,

It's hard to pick my favorite of your biographies, but Einstein, I mean, you really paint a picture of another ... I don't want to call him a misfit ... but a person who doesn't necessarily have a standard trajectory through life of success. Absolutely.

You said visual thinking. I wonder if you've seen parallels of the different styles and kinds of thinking that operate the minds of these people. Is there parallels you see between Elon, Steve Jobs, Einstein, DaVinci, specifically in how they think? I think they were all visual thinkers, perhaps coming from slight handicaps as children, meaning Leonardo was left-handed and a little bit dyslexic, I think. Certainly Einstein had echolalia. He would repeat things. He was slow in learning to talk. I think visualizing helps a lot. With Musk, I see it all the time when I'm walking the factory lines with him or in product development, where he'll look at, say, the heat shield under the Raptor engine of a Starship booster, and he'll say, "Why does it have to be this way? Couldn't we trim it this way or make it ... or even get rid of this part of it?" He can visualize the material science.

I wonder if as a small aside we could say just having gotten to know Elon very well, the silliness, the willingness to engage in the absurdity of it all and have fun. What is that? Is that just a cork of personality or is that a fundamental aspect of a human who's running six plus companies? Well, it's a release valve just like video games and Polytopia and Elden Ring are release valves for him. And he does have an explosive sense of humor as you know. And the weird thing is when he makes the abrupt transition from dark demon mode and you're in a conference room and he has really become upset about something and not only there dark vibes, but there's dark words emanating and he's saying, your resignation will be accepted if you... et cetera. And then something pops and he pulls out his phone and pulls up a Bonnie Python's skit like the School of Silly Walks or whichever John Cleese it was. And he starts laughing again and things break. So it's almost as if he has different modes, the emulation of human mode, the engineering mode, the darkened demon mode, and certainly there is the silly and giddy mode.

Well, let me ask about not just the crazy but the cruelty. So you've written when reporting as Steve Jobs, Woz told you that the big question to ask was did he have to be so mean, so rough and cruel, so drama addicted, what is this answer for Steve Jobs? Did he have to be so cruel? For Jobs, I asked Woz at the end of my reporting because that's what he said at the beginning. We're doing the launch of I think the iPad 2, it may have been. Steve is emaciated because he's been sick. And so I say to Woz, what's the answer to your question? And he said, well, if I had been running Apple, I would've been nicer to everybody. Everybody got stock options. We've been like a family. And then I don't know if you know Woz, he was like a teddy bear. He paused, he smiled and he said, but if I had been running Apple, I don't think we would've done the Macintosh or the iPhone. So yeah, you have to sometimes be rough. And Jobs said the same thing that Musk said to me, which is he said, people like you love wearing velvet gloves. Now, I don't know that I've worn velvet gloves often. But you like people to like you, like to sweet talk things, your sugarcoat things.

Yeah, and to do that in the way he did requires another part that you write about with the Three Musketeers and the whole engineering, the firing and the bringing in the engineers to try to go hardcore, so there's a lot of interesting questions to ask there. But high level, can you just comment about that part of the saga, which is, bringing in the engineers and seeing what can we do here? Right. He brought in the engineers and figured that the amount of people doing Tesla full self-driving autopilot and all the software there was about 1/10 of what was doing software for Twitter. He said, "This can't be the case," and he fired 85% in three different rounds. The first was just firing people because they looked at the coding, and they had a team of people from Tesla's autopilot team grading the codes of all that was written in the past year or so. Then he fired people who didn't seem to be totally all in or loyal, and then another round of layoffs.

So how much of Elon's success would you say, Elon's and Steve Jobs' success is the hiring and managing of great teams? When I asked Steve Jobs at one point, "What was the best product you ever created?" I thought he'd say maybe the Macintosh or maybe the iPhone. He said, "No, those products are hard. The best thing I ever created was the team that made those products, and that's the hard part is creating a team," and he did, from Jony Ive to Tim Cook and Eddie Cue and Phil Schiller. Elon has done a good job bringing in people, Gywnne Shotwell, obviously, Linda Yaccarino. She can navigate through the current crises, certainly stellar people at SpaceX like Mark Juncosa, and then at Tesla, like Drew Baglino and Lars Moravy and Tom Zhu and many others.

Yeah, a different league. Okay. So one of the many things that comes to mind with Ben Franklin is incredible time management. Is there's something you could say about Ben Franklin and about Steve Jobs? I think interesting with Elon is that he, as you write, runs six companies, seven, it depends how you count with Starlink 'cause its own thing. I don't know. What can you say about these people in terms of time management? Well, Musk is in a league of his own in the way he does it. First of all, Steve Jobs had to run Pixar and Apple for a while, but Musk every couple of hours is switching his mindset from how to implant the Neuralink chip and what will the robot that implants it in the brain look like and how fast can we make it move? Then the heat shield on the Raptor or switching to human imitation, machine learning, full self-drive. On the night that the Twitter board agreed to the deal, this is huge around the world. I'm sure you remember like, "Musk buys Twitter." It wasn't when the deal closed, it was when Twitter accepted his offer. I thought, "Okay," but then he went to Boca Chica, to South Texas and spent time fixating on, if I remember correctly, a valve in the Raptor engine that had a methane leak issue and what were the possible ways to fix it. All the engineers in that room, I assume, or thinking about, "This guy just bought Twitter, should we say something?"

In Innovators, another book of yours that I love, you write about individuals and about groups. So one of the questions the book addresses is, is it individuals or is it groups that turn the tides of history? When Henry Kissinger was on the shuttle missions for the Middle East piece, this is the first book I ever wrote, he said, "When I was a professor at Harvard, I thought that history was determined by great forces and groups of people. But when I see it up close, I see what a difference an individual can make." He's talking about Sadat and Golda Meir or probably talking about himself too, or at least in his mind. We biographers have this dirty secret that we know. We distort history a bit by making the narrative too driven by an individual, but sometimes it is driven by an individual. Musk is a case like that. Sometimes, as I did with The Innovators, there's teams and people who build on each other and Gordon Moore and Bob Noyce then getting Andy Grove and doing the microchip, which then comes out and Wozniak and Jobs find it at some electronic store and they decide to build the Apple. So sometimes they are flows of forces and groups of people.

We're all mortal. When and how do you think Elon will retire from the insanely productive schedule he's on now? I would think that he would hate to retire. I think that he can't live without the pressure, the drama, the all-in feeling. It's never been anything that seemed to have crossed his mind. He's never said, "Maybe I love Larry Ellison's house on the beach in Hawaii. Maybe I should spend time in doing." Instead, he says things like, "I learned early on that vacations will kill you." He goes on vacation at one point, and they oust him from PayPal. Then he goes to Africa at one point, he gets malaria. He says, "I've learned vacations kill you."

Well, let me ask you about your mind, your genius, your process? I'll give you two out of three.

I'm a bit of a romantic. So to me, even your Einstein book had lessons on romance and relationships. Ooh, dear.

Well, one of the things I'd love to ask you is for advice for young people. To me, first advice would be to read biographies in the sense because they help you understand of all the different ways you can live a life well lived. But from having written biographies, having studied so many great men and women, what advice could you give to people of how to live this life? Well, I keep going back to the classics and Plato and Aristotle and Socrates, and I guess it's Plato's maxim but he may be quoting Socrates that the unexamined life is not worth living. And it gets back to the know thyself and other things, which is you don't have to figure out what is the big meaning of it all, but you have to figure out why you're doing what you're doing and that requires something that I did not have enough of when I was young, which is self-awareness and examining every motive, everything I do.